cooper
Dulci-Zither (60 - 70 Posts)
Posts: 62
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Post by cooper on Apr 14, 2008 16:57:12 GMT 1
The worst offenders I think are those triplets. They are so easy to do, and can sound first class when used sparingly & in the right places, but when added ad infinitum, they can totally destroy all around them ...... like some form of crazy mindless Dulcimer-Gatling Gun!  Has anyone else noticed this, or is it just me? Hey, I hate to put you on the spot, but could you maybe point out some videos that do the "Dulcimer-Gatling -Gun?" Maybe send me a PM instead of posting on the forum. I am confused to what this sounds like. To tell you the truth, I have been playing hammered dulcimer for over seven years, and I still do not know what the sound is supposed to be. I listen to so much other music and those types of dulcimers (from yang chin to santori) and I end up copying those sounds, especially when playing music from those countries. |
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Post by Dick Glasgow on Apr 14, 2008 18:15:23 GMT 1
Hi Dustin, My comment was specifically about Traditional Irish & Scottish tunes when played on a Hammered Dulcimer, because that's the music I have played for over 30 years. I certainly can't speak for the Yang Chin, Santur etc etc because quite honestly, I cannot even begin to understand the wonderful music of those other countries. As for directing you to some YouTubes, I certainly wouldn't want to do that on an open forum. I personally don't have a problem with folks being critical of the way I play my own music, fire away, I have broad shoulders { .... & have heard it all before! ;D } but I'm sure there are many musicians out there, who may well be sensitive, especially learners. So for that reason, I would always try to say only positive things about a specific YouTube in public. However, when I get a chance, I'll have a look through some & send you a pm with a link or two, which will hopefully demonstrate what I meant by my earlier comment. When it comes to musicians playing Scots & Irish Trad on any instrument, it annoys me when ornaments are just thrown in willy-nilly without due care & attention as to where the long notes in each tune are, which were designed to be ornamented in the first place to maintain the intrinsic natural rhythm of the tune. Tenor Banjo players can be particularly guilty of this SIN!  I remember watching a Mandolin player at a festival one time, about 20 years ago, who was impressing all around him, with, what sounded like every second note being "tripleted" (sp). Folks seemed to love it, but to me it actually sounded dreadful & totally destroyed the essence of the original tune & there was just no way anyone could possibly have danced to it. The rhythm, such as it was, was almost non existent. I remember the words mindlless cacophony sprung to mind straight away. Remember though that I can only voice my own opinion here. I'm sure others views will differ. Perhaps that helped you to understand where I'm coming from, on this.  Cheers Dick |
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cooper
Dulci-Zither (60 - 70 Posts)
Posts: 62
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Post by cooper on Apr 15, 2008 3:19:02 GMT 1
Oh, okay. I understand a little better now. It is so hard to describe music through words at times. I understand about not wanting to point out an example on this forum (that is why I wanted you to PM me). It would be interesting to start up a topic on when some people ornament and when not. I have no fast or hard rules on these things personally, but I do enjoy the dulcimer geek talk |
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Post by alanrichie on Apr 15, 2008 5:03:16 GMT 1
Hi Dustin, My comment was specifically about Traditional Irish & Scottish tunes when played on a Hammered Dulcimer, . . . ., it annoys me when ornaments are just thrown in willy-nilly without due care & attention as to where the long notes in each tune are, which were designed to be ornamented in the first place to maintain the intrinsic natural rhythm of the tune. Tenor Banjo players can be particularly guilty of this SIN! I remember watching a Mandolin player at a festival one time, about 20 years ago, who was impressing all around him, with, what sounded like every second note being "tripleted" (sp). Folks seemed to love it, but to me it actually sounded dreadful & totally destroyed the essence of the original tune & there was just no way anyone could possibly have danced to it. The rhythm, such as it was, was almost non existent. . . . .Perhaps that helped you to understand where I'm coming from, on this. Cheers Dick . . . well there you have it in a nut shell! Tradiitional ornamentation is something I need to learn. Much late Renaissance and Baroque music was written with the exspectation that musicians would improvise runs, trills, turns etc. to show off their virtuosity, wasn't it? But in tradition dance music it is the rhythms that must show through . . . correct me if I'm amiss? |
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Post by Nikita on Apr 15, 2008 8:00:58 GMT 1
ho, do I like this thread ! I remember a few years ago feeling happy I was playing hackbrett.. and not HD, exactly becausse of what Dick says : I heard a few HD players letting the hammers bounce on every note, just so that you couldn't even recognise the melody... (with hackbrett, it's very difficult to let the hammers bounce, they're too thin...).. and then I found a few records which made me love HD again... just because of the playing (Malcolm Dalglish is one for instance...  )... For me I find it uninteresting, when the technical effects go over the music itself. You see that happen with all instruments... I heard once a great Cymbalum player in concert : his virtuosity was impressive. and his music was just boring... I was quoted in an article on the concert, because I spoke of "a diarrhea of notes" ;D. And definitely, I think that if you play dance music, one must be able to dance on your music... if not, then it's no good...  |
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Post by Dick Glasgow on May 6, 2008 14:29:31 GMT 1
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cooper
Dulci-Zither (60 - 70 Posts)
Posts: 62
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Post by cooper on May 6, 2008 21:22:04 GMT 1
Oh, that version of that song makes me feel embarrassed to be white |
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dizzi
Dulci-Psaltery (0 - 10 Posts)
Posts: 4
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Post by dizzi on Sept 4, 2008 13:14:41 GMT 1
Hi Everyone heres a player of a few of my dulcimer videos on youtube! <object width="746" height="413"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/cp/vjVQa1PpcFM3vdDXIa2Zx37B-fWA1fs5GWZlletJbbU="></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/cp/vjVQa1PpcFM3vdDXIa2Zx37B-fWA1fs5GWZlletJbbU=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="746" height="413"></embed></object> Hope you like it best wishes Dizzi X |
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dizzi
Dulci-Psaltery (0 - 10 Posts)
Posts: 4
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Post by dizzi on Sept 4, 2008 13:20:55 GMT 1
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dulcimike
Dulci-Mt-D (140 - 160 Posts)
Posts: 155
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Post by dulcimike on Sept 4, 2008 17:58:29 GMT 1
Ornaments on Irish and Scottish tunes! I've been doing some thinking about this, since I play Irish and Scottish tunes.
I've never heard Andy Dowling's playing, who was a dulcimer player from the Republic, nor have I really paid a lot of attention yet to Barry Carroll's playing, though I have his CD and need to. And Seamus Brady only plays slow aires, so that doesn't really count for this discussion, since he has a unique, though wonderful, style. But I am becoming familiar with John Rea's playing, and William, his cousin plays exactly like John, having learned from him. So what I will say here is based solely on my take on John Rea's playing.
John used triplets, what he called "the shakes" in appropriate places, I think. He learned the tunes from his father, who was a fiddler, so he had some grounding in the traditional style of Co. Antrim. He uses triplets played on one note or on three (a triplet run of notes), but certainly not on every note, or even close to that. He played dance music, and played it without a lot of ornaments. The rhythm (or beat) was foremost in his playing, according to the late Nat Magee, since he did play dance music.
Now for slower tunes, aires, and such, ornaments can be added judiciously more than on the fast tunes. It's really not only a matter of dancing, it's a matter of basic physics - it's harder to play more note when going fast than when playing slower. It all just becomes a blur.
So, my take on this is that I strive to play the tunes clean (i.e., no or few ornaments), and throw in grace notes and shakes/triplets where they seem right, and some bounces leading to a downbeat note (that last comes naturally from playing snare drum) and may be like slurring the note into the next one.
I do need to research the playing of Andy Dowling more, and listen more to Barry Carroll's playing to get a perspective on that from them, but at this point in time, I think playing just judicious ornaments on dance tunes is what the example from the Irish dulcimer player I know most about tells me to do.
My two pence.
Ptarm - Do you know if there are any Andy Dowling tapes or CDs available?
Cheers.
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Post by alanrichie on Sept 5, 2008 0:39:50 GMT 1
I haven't listened to enough traditional music, or paid enough attention. I like to play the tunes plain and then ornamentation just happens, as Dick says, sparingly. I do know that ornamentation and the way it's done (eg grace notes, which aren't strictly ornamentation) come mainly from the way tunes are played on the fiddle and pipes.
I watched some of the videos again and this time watched the Jenny Coxon ones then I got side-tracked, and made homesick into the bargain, watching morris!
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Post by clouddancer on Nov 9, 2008 17:49:16 GMT 1
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Post by Dick Glasgow on Nov 10, 2008 17:21:58 GMT 1
Thanks Cloud, & very nice too ~ I've added your YouTube to the list.
Cheers
Dick
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yidneth
Dulci-Tambourin (10 - 20 Posts)
Posts: 14
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Post by yidneth on Dec 12, 2008 12:49:57 GMT 1
thank you for compilling them, i'm watching quite a few of them right now, i hope taht "observing" and watching also help, i'm a beginner, and i'm progressing slowly virtually self-taught. It's too song for me though to record something, or be as fast as most of the featured performers, still it helps a lot to see others.
thanks!
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Post by Dick Glasgow on Dec 12, 2008 13:40:49 GMT 1
Hey, you are very welcome. I'm delighted to hear that you find them useful.
Like you I'm learning in a vacuum, so I also found great inspiration from rooting out the Youtubes I liked best.
Just remember that, in my opinion, speed is certainly NOT the most important element.
That's one of the joys of the HD for me, the fact that slow tunes can sound magical. To be perfectly honest, I don't even play reels on mine, simply because I dislike the musical chaos that I hear, when I try to play too fast.
Happy learning.
Cheers
Dick
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)... For me I find it uninteresting, when the technical effects go over the music itself. You see that happen with all instruments... I heard once a great Cymbalum player in concert : his virtuosity was impressive. and his music was just boring... I was quoted in an article on the concert, because I spoke of "a diarrhea of notes" ;D. 
